Curse

Avarre · Nov 20, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

so?

The point is that this isn't an issue of 'fairness' at all, but rather a scramble to get as many free benefits as possible. By all fairness, no title/achievement should have retroactive benefits since that would be unfair to those who didn't get such benefits in the early stages of Guild Wars.

pumpkin pie · Nov 20, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The point is that this isn't an issue of 'fairness' at all, but rather a scramble to get as many free benefits as possible. By all fairness, no title/achievement should have retroactive benefits since that would be unfair to those who didn't get such benefits in the early stages of Guild Wars.

Win Thread! Couldn't have put it any better the way I make my points across to others.

Gill Halendt · Nov 20, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The point is that this isn't an issue of 'fairness' at all, but rather a scramble to get as many free benefits as possible. By all fairness, no title/achievement should have retroactive benefits since that would be unfair to those who didn't get such benefits in the early stages of Guild Wars.

That's why such a late change as the introduction of books makes little sense to me.

Why now? Couldn't they think about it before?

Well, problem is, books are here. New benefits are awarded for players completing them now. Everyone playing before 13th November didn't get such benefits. Something CAN be done so that more players (potentially: everyone) can take advantage of those benefits. That's what we're discussing about.

Riot Narita · Nov 20, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Why now? Couldn't they think about it before?

I suspect they did it because of the people who "felt compelled" to run HFFF bots. They wanted to nerf HFFF to prevent botting, but needed to provide an equally efficient way to grind for the ridiculous amounts of faction needed for a max title... a way that wasn't bottable... and once the ball was rolling...

If so - hooray for the botters? Years of complaining about the difficulty of maxing faction titles, and the Kurzick advantage, didn't get results like this... but botting did?! Hahaha!

Gill Halendt · Nov 20, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hissy

I suspect they did it because of the people who "felt compelled" to run HFFF bots. They wanted to nerf HFFF to prevent botting, but needed to provide an equally efficient way to grind for the ridiculous amounts of faction needed for a max title... a way that wasn't bottable... and once the ball was rolling...

Even so, this solution is almost one year late - and that wasn't difficult to implement way back then.

Now botters got what they wanted (ever seen how many Saviours of the Kurzicks were there in Lutgardis? Not to mention money and Allegiance Reputation to conquer outposts they got in the process...), they'll probably not get banned because Anet can't spot botters (!) and people who have spent the last year playing the game multiple times instead of botting don't get even a single retroactive book. Well...

Cebe · Nov 20, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

At the end of the day, experienced players who feel put out by the whole idea that they can't backdate books, can complete these missions far quicker than first-timers.

Take the Factions storybook (Shiro's Return) for instance. Even just a slightly experienced player should have no problem rattling off all the normal mode missions from Vizunah onwards in about 3.5 hours. 3.5 hours work to net you 40,000 Faction, 40,000 XP and 4k to boot. You don't need to worry about masters reward, so you can saunter through with Hero and Hench at your own pace if you don't feel like rushing.

In the grand scheme of things, it's not really a massive investment of time for the reward at stake, and if it were to encourage old players to come back and play the game a little more, it's no bad thing.

This thread is sounding a lot like "I've done my time. I should get my prize." - It makes Guild Wars sound like a prison!

Fril Estelin · Nov 20, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Why now? Couldn't they think about it before?

Sorry for the off-topic but I'll throw an idea that passed through my mind (funny things can pass through one's mind

) a little while ago, though I very highly doubt it's even remotely plausible (given that changes of this scale require many months of preparation): WoW WotLK...

DreamWind · Nov 20, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The point is that this isn't an issue of 'fairness' at all, but rather a scramble to get as many free benefits as possible.

Not completely. I could care less about the benefits as I haven't played the game seriously in a long time and I agree with the QQ'ers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

By all fairness, no title/achievement should have retroactive benefits since that would be unfair to those who didn't get such benefits in the early stages of Guild Wars.

Which I would agree with if previous books weren't already retroactive and Anet actually came out and gave us the real reason they didn't make these new ones the same way. Instead we have conflicting and half assed reasons from them which is really nothing new.

Basically from my perspective (an oldbie who doesn't play much), I read this update and saw nothing that got me wanting to play again. Hell I actually saw more that is still keeping me away from the game (no PvP updates for one). Giving me gold rewards for missions I have already done is not going to get people like me to grind the missions over again. And in that sense, Anet has said "come back to Guild Wars and grind everybody!" And people are apparently happy with that.

Quaker · Nov 20, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Which I would agree with if previous books weren't already retroactive and Anet actually came out and gave us the real reason they didn't make these new ones the same way.

I repeat - no books have ever been retroactive in the sense you mean. I could explain the EotN books again, but it's obviously not worth the effort.

Quote:

And in that sense, Anet has said "come back to Guild Wars and grind everybody!" And people are apparently happy with that.

I don't know what ANet has said, but it seems to me that these books are really saying "Hurry up and get your silly titles so you can stop grinding and using up our bandwidth." Other than trying to keep a customer base for GW2, ANet has no incentive to have anyone play GW longer than necessary. When you think about it, most of the new stuff they've introduced - the summoning stones, storybooks, etc. - have all made the game easier, and therefore, faster, to play, meaning that people will "finish" the game faster and reduce the load on their servers (while still living up to the "free online play" mantra.)
I only hope that they don't carry too much of that crap over to GW2.

Shadowspawn X · Nov 20, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The point is that this isn't an issue of 'fairness' at all, but rather a scramble to get as many free benefits as possible.

Player A finishes Cantha in NM and HM and gets 60k + 120k = 180k Faction
Player B finishes Cantha in NM and HM and gets nothing.
How is this not a fairness issue?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

By all fairness, no title/achievement should have retroactive benefits since that would be unfair to those who didn't get such benefits in the early stages of Guild Wars.

No by fairness you don't give one group of players a different set of rewards than other players for doing the same thing.

Cluebag · Nov 20, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

I don't know what ANet has said, but it seems to me that these books are really saying "Hurry up and get your silly titles so you can stop grinding and using up our bandwidth." Other than trying to keep a customer base for GW2, ANet has no incentive to have anyone play GW longer than necessary. When you think about it, most of the new stuff they've introduced - the summoning stones, storybooks, etc. - have all made the game easier, and therefore, faster, to play, meaning that people will "finish" the game faster and reduce the load on their servers (while still living up to the "free online play" mantra.)

If that were the case, then they should have included in the update a npc that instantly gives us both 10 million luxon and kurzick faction, so we can be done fussing with the corrupted, previously bottable titles, and be done with "cluttering up the bandwith." That would at least clear up several hundred hours each that the title seekers would require as progress towards gwamm.

trankle · Nov 20, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

Player A finishes Cantha in NM and HM and gets 60k + 120k = 180k Faction
Player B finishes Cantha in NM and HM and gets nothing.
How is this not a fairness issue?

Player A finishes Cantha in NM and HM after the update and gets exactly the rewards advertised for doing so at that time.
Player B finishes Cantha in NM and HM before the update and gets exactly the rewards advertised for doing so at that time.
How is this a fairness issue?

If player B didn't think the reward (whether XP, gold, title progress, or simply storyline progress) for doing the missions was sufficient, he wouldn't have done them.

Let's look at a hypothetical situation. Anet reads through these threads and decides that introducing the storybooks was more trouble than it was worth. On December 13th, they revert back to the old reward system. During this month, many players, new and veteran alike, have done missions, filled books, and collected the rewards.

Wouldn't it be fair to then retroactively take back the rewards earned during the period between 11/13 and 12/13? It wouldn't matter that the rewards were advertised at the time, right? Because in the end, it wouldn't be fair that a new player wouldn't be able to get the same rewards as a veteran.

Gli · Nov 21, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

Player A finishes Cantha in NM and HM and gets 60k + 120k = 180k Faction
Player B finishes Cantha in NM and HM and gets nothing.
How is this not a fairness issue?

No by fairness you don't give one group of players a different set of rewards than other players for doing the same thing.

Actually, it's completely fair. Player A did his original missions under a well-defined and completely fair reward system. Everyone playing at that time got the same reward, never any less than they were expecting or than they were promised.

Then the reward system changes.

Now, player A and Player B can both do missions under a new well-defined and completely fair reward system.

ANet just gave the job of finishing missions a pay rise and a better dental plan. Pay rises aren't retroactive, they go into effect at a certain time and pertain to work done after that time. If my boss gives me a pay rise, I'm not going to whine about how it is unfair that I worked for a year at a lower wage.

slowerpoke · Nov 21, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

small update:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

Incoming Dev Update - 20 November 2008

To address a few key issues raised by the November 13 Game Update, I have asked the developers to write a Developer Update to follow-up on those points. This will be published in English, German, French, Spanish, and Italian -- tomorrow on the wiki.

I wonder if they're just gonna repeat the old "oh all that gold into the economy would be bad" line.

Obviously, they should make the books retroactively reward the faction without the gold for those who have already completed the mission in nm/hm.

DreamWind · Nov 21, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

Player A finishes Cantha in NM and HM after the update and gets exactly the rewards advertised for doing so at that time.
Player B finishes Cantha in NM and HM before the update and gets exactly the rewards advertised for doing so at that time.
How is this a fairness issue?

Because player A finishes Cantha and gets both the rewards from after the update and the rewards from before the update? Maybe we should only give player A rewards from after the update and see who cries unfair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

Obviously, they should make the books retroactively reward the faction without the gold for those who have already completed the mission in nm/hm.

I see no reason why players shouldn't get the gold too. The economy argument has been legitmately refuted numerous times. Honestly, it has been stated ONCE (by Regina) and it came from a company that let shadowform ruin the economy for how long?

daraaksii · Nov 21, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Actually I don't care about getting money for doing missions either in NM or HM.

I came back to Guild Wars after 2 years, done some Ring of Fire missions, and I had alot of fun with or without real players (not NPCs).

But that's just my opinion.

Cheers,
daraaksii

R_Frost · Nov 21, 2008, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

small update:

I wonder if they're just gonna repeat the old "oh all that gold into the economy would be bad" line.

Obviously, they should make the books retroactively reward the faction without the gold for those who have already completed the mission in nm/hm.

even with full rewards for being able to buy a retroactive book, are the rewards going to make things that unbalanced? if i was able to do cantha books on the 9 characters i have that are already canthan protectors, i would get 360000 faction towards my title(which at my current # would take me to rank 7) the XP i can care less about, i already have enough skill points on my 2 title characters should i choose to finish skill hunter. then theres the gold, 36000 i would get minus the cost to buy the pages. is 36000 really going to be an economy killer? no! the economy has been pretty bad for a long time and in my case it will just be used to fund other titles.

Sjeng · Nov 21, 2008, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

even with full rewards for being able to buy a retroactive book, are the rewards going to make things that unbalanced? if i was able to do cantha books on the 9 characters i have that are already canthan protectors, i would get 360000 faction towards my title(which at my current # would take me to rank 7) the XP i can care less about, i already have enough skill points on my 2 title characters should i choose to finish skill hunter. then theres the gold, 36000 i would get minus the cost to buy the pages. is 36000 really going to be an economy killer? no! the economy has been pretty bad for a long time and in my case it will just be used to fund other titles.

QFT. We already established that the economy was a lame reason not to make books retroactive. It's the grind we're worried about, not the money Anet. We don't even NEED the money that bad. It's not even that much anyway. It's the damn title grind we want to shorten as much as possible.
I'm pretty curious what they'll say on the wiki today...

trankle · Nov 21, 2008, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Because player A finishes Cantha and gets both the rewards from after the update and the rewards from before the update?

So, in other words, he gets exactly what is advertised as the reward?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Maybe we should only give player A rewards from after the update and see who cries unfair.

Well, you're right. If we gave Player A less rewards than were promised at the time of mission completion, that would be unfair. I think you're getting it!

Sounds like we both agree the current situation is fair.

DreamWind · Nov 21, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

So, in other words, he gets exactly what is advertised as the reward?

Well, you're right. If we gave Player A less rewards than were promised at the time of mission completion, that would be unfair. I think you're getting it!

Sounds like we both agree the current situation is fair.

Your argument doesn't even address the point. You are more or less saying "Anet gave us certain rewards for doing the missions before the update and after the update thus it is fair". I'm saying those rewards are unfair. Get it?